Maria Margarete Gosse
German Ambassador to Spain
A. Rubio
She first came to Spain in the 1990s, to the German Consulate in Barcelona. Since then, Maria Margarete Gosse has had a very special relationship with the country: “How could I not have one if I have a Spanish husband and Spanish family,” she says. The German ambassador considers that, in the same way, there is a “special harmony” between the two countries, which translates into bilateral benefits as well as benefits for the European Union as a whole.
What does the German-Spanish understanding translate into?
There are very few issues on which we disagree. And even then, there are always open doors to talk. Yes, we are very much in tune with each other.
Last week Brussels downgraded its growth forecasts for the Eurozone. If Germany goes into recession, will Europe suffer the consequences?
Germany, after the covid crisis, has not resumed its usual tact. This is worrying for all of us. But we are well aware of the major challenges we face and we are working hard to transform the industrial and energy model. It is a question of adapting, first of all, to immediate challenges such as climate change, but also to major geopolitical and geo-economic changes. This is not just a task for Germany, but for Europe as a whole.
For the last 40 years it has been said cyclically that Germany was the sick man of Europe. We can call it a “classic”. But it has always managed to change its economic models. That is something that gives a lot of confidence. German industry in this respect has always been very strong.
We have to accept that we are in a situation where Europe is going to lose weight, but in relative terms, compared to other countries that have very high growth. What we have to do, and we are doing it step by step, is to adapt our economies to this changed environment. We have to see how we deal with countries to which we used to give aid for cooperation and of which we are now partners at the same level. We are interested in selling them our products and having access to their natural resources, but they are also interested in developing their industry and participating much more in the value chain.
Can the defence industry be a mainstay of the European economy in the near future?
Unfortunately with the war against Ukraine we see this momentum already. For the European economy in the long term, I think the interesting thing is the partnerships and the possibilities we see in the renewable sector. There is a lot of interest in wind and solar energy and many Spanish companies are interested in investing in Germany. I think the sector will grow a lot in the coming years.
Has the German automotive sector lagged behind in the development of electric vehicles?
I don’t have figures at hand, but a major German producer has decided that the basic model is the electric one. I think that answers your question. What lies at the heart of this problem are the fuel producers, who don’t know how long they have to maintain fuel technology. But the commitment to electric is clear. Volkswagen has announced an investment of up to 10 billion for a battery factory.
Perhaps Europeans should think more about patents or research?
We have to think about how much weight we want industry and services to have. In Germany a large part of the weight of the economy is currently in services, although we have a fairly strong industrial base. Of course, the issue of innovation will be key to Europe’s future development. We have a landscape of science, of universities, of companies that are very innovative. I just mention the covid vaccine, which has been developed in Germany, in Europe, not in the United States or China. That is why it is very important to support everything that is innovation. And that starts with education, with vocational training. That is key to succeed in this geo-economically different world than we have had in the last thirty years.
We are in the middle of a war against Ukraine. Were we Europeans too innocent not to see it coming?
This has already been discussed at length. The important thing now is to look to the future. The first thing is to see how this crisis will end. We will continue to support Ukraine. We want it to retain its status as an independent country and to become a free country again. That is of central importance for Europe. We always knew that this crisis would not be resolved in a few days and that it would be very hard.
I have enormous admiration for what the Ukrainian people are achieving. I am impressed every day. I think the worst thing would be to start thinking “well, this has gone on long enough, we have other challenges, can’t we make Russia a peace offer? Everyone wants peace, but in the end, if there are possibilities for negotiations, which I don’t see at the moment, it will be Ukraine itself that will decide.
What would be the consequences of a Russian victory for Europe?
The consequences would be felt first and foremost by Ukraine, then by Europe. But there would also be consequences for the system of international law, which prohibits, as a central rule, acts of violence or aggression against other countries.
This war brought us face to face with our energy shortages. It seemed to have been solved, but Spain, for example, recently increased its imports of Russian gas. Doesn’t that seem paradoxical, to say the least?
That is what it looks like. However, what we have achieved, and this is something Putin did not count on, is that in a few months’ time we will be free of dependence on Russian gas. Certainly, because of the complexity of the global economy, there are other places where supply channels cannot be closed. This is a fact that we deplore, but the important thing is to see that we can live without direct supplies from Russia. And that has helped us to move faster in the transformation to forms of energy that, fundamentally, free us from dependence on fossil fuels, which are ruinous for the climate and for the planet.
Does it not seem to you that Europe is alone in moving towards a cleaner planet?
We are a vanguard, and vanguards are always alone until others arrive. The United States is introducing measures to boost sustainability. We have to be fair to China. As a result of its extremely rapid development, it is now the biggest CO2 emitter, in absolute terms. But for many years the largest wind farms have been in Inner Mongolia, such as the one in Chifeng.
The important thing is that there is a reason for us to be that vanguard. Europe was the vanguard in industrialisation, which is also the cause of the problem, and that is why we have to be the vanguard in transformation. Renewables offer us the possibility of avoiding serious climate problems that affect many countries. If we develop these technologies we will be able to guarantee a much cheaper and more sustainable energy supply also for many countries that have started their path towards industrialisation.
You are optimistic.
In the medium and long term, yes, we have a lot of confidence in this model. I’m not saying there won’t be some deviation, but we are convinced that, if we do our best to achieve carbon neutrality by 2045, we can be independent of all kinds of fossil energy. It is a goal worth pursuing.
There was also a debate on whether or not to keep nuclear power. Who is right?
Germany has long since decided, with the full support of the population, to abandon nuclear energy because of the risks of this technology, because of the uranium supply problems, and because of the price, which ends up being quite high if we develop a technology that is acceptable in terms of safety. Moreover, due to the climate crisis it is getting warmer, and keeping a nuclear power plant cool at 40 degrees Celsius is not easy. I understand the arguments of those who are in favour, such as France, but Germany decided to go the other way and I don’t see any way back.
Doesn’t Europe give a certain feeling of a lack of unity that prevents us from presenting ourselves as a real power on the foreign ministry?
You have to understand the nature of Europe as a collection of very different states, with countries like Germany, the fourth largest industrial power in the world, and other very small ones, like Malta. And yet they manage to come together most of the time. That’s the marvel, and above all, they manage to do so in crisis situations. We are not like the United States, we are not a centralised state, we have very diverse interests, for example in energy. But in the end, and this is our wealth, we find solutions together. I have a lot of confidence in Europe in this respect.
And mind you, we are countries that were at war for centuries. But we have not been at war with each other thanks to the EU. This is a huge achievement. Maybe someone is not so clear about it, but if we look at Ukraine we see what could happen. It is important to keep that in mind.
For young people today that part of history seems very distant. Do we need more education?
That is why I think it is very important to also talk about the history of the EU. To explain why it exists. The EU is not a bureaucratic monster, although there is inevitably a part of it, because it produces rules and decisions, but above all it is an exceptionally effective instrument of peace.
For young people, I think it is a question of education and communication. The media have a very important role to play. Like this interview, although I don’t know how many young people currently follow The Diplomat.
I wouldn’t even venture to say “some”.
Well, the truth is that, although there is a lot of criticism of European decisions, we must always remember that the EU is the heart of a peaceful Europe.
Germany needs foreign workers. What are its needs right now?
I believe that by 2040 we will need approximately up to 4 million more workers because of our demographic structure, which is not very different from that of other countries. In Germany, at the end of this decade, those who were born in the 1960s will have to retire. We have to solve this problem, not only in Germany but in Europe as a whole.
In Germany it is already accepted that immigrants are needed, both skilled and unskilled, and the attitude towards the requirements for working there has changed. It is more important that they are intelligent, capable people than that they have a high level of German. We are going to introduce a point system to facilitate many of the requirements, we want to reduce bureaucracy and make decisions more quickly. Germany has a lot to offer, it is an extremely stable country, it has fantastic social systems. That’s why Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s policy is to open the doors more and more to attract people who want to work in Germany.
Doesn’t that close the door to a common EU migration policy?
It is a great challenge because the attitudes of some countries are very different. We always have to find a balance between closing and opening, between the south and the north, between the countries where illegal immigration arrives, as is the case in Spain or Italy, and the northern countries where many want to stay. However, we hope that during the Spanish Presidency there will be another step forward and that we will finally be able to make progress on the reform of the right of asylum, although I know that this is very difficult.
What other progress do you expect during this Presidency?
Decisions must be taken in preparation for the COP, progress must be made on the energy transition, the financing of the transformation and the financial structure of the stability pact.
Chancellor Scholz defended a series of objectives in Prague last year: strategic sovereignty of the EU, a more agile common foreign ministry, increasing European defence capabilities, renewing migration and fiscal policy and conditioning funds. These measures are undoubtedly necessary, but aren’t they too many objectives at the same time?
We have many challenges and that’s why we have to think of many strategies. They are reforms within the EU to improve decision-making processes, such as qualified majority voting, which is essential. But we cannot postpone some objectives for others. They are not mutually exclusive, they are connected and we are working on all of them. I believe the EU has the institutions to do this.
Have these proposals been well received by European partners?
Every issue has its challenges for every country. Germany and Spain, among others, have set up a group of friends in favour of extending qualified majority decision-making in the Common Foreign and Security Policy. Such groups always help to move forward.
Are there any bilateral visits planned soon?
Well, we are now in the six months of the Spanish Presidency and we have lots and lots of contacts. At the moment, as the new government in Spain has not yet been formed, there are no bilateral visits planned in the Chancellor’s agenda, but contact is very intense. Our relationship with Spain is one of the most productive we have.
