Dastis: “The Foreign Ministry should be given more human and financial resources”

Alfonso Dastis Former minister of Foreign Affairs Luis Ayllón To mark the tenth anniversary of The Diplomat in Spain, we have interviewed the people who held the post of Minister of Foreign Affairs in that decade, addressing their management at that time. Alfonso Dastis was Minister of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation between November 2016 and June 2018. A graduate in Law from the CEU San Pablo University, he entered the Diplomatic Career in 1983 and before being called by Mariano Rajoy to take charge of the Foreign Affairs portfolio, he was ambassador to the Netherlands, secretary general for European Affairs and ambassador permanent representative of Spain to the European Union. After his time at the Palace of Santa Cruz, he was appointed ambassador to Italy and is currently ambassador to Hungary. Were you surprised by his appointment as minister in November 2016? Yes, I was permanent representative to the European Union and I had asked to go to another embassy, and I was not expecting a call to become a minister at all. You know the workings of the European Union well. What progress did Spain make in the EU during your term as minister? Spain is one of the leading countries in the European Union. During my term of office in Brussels, we went through some complicated times, which the euro as a whole went through, the crisis of whether to bail out or not; but in the end everything turned out well and I believe that Spain had a fairly significant weight in the European Union. In addition to that economic crisis, we had to live through the Brexit issue, which was a bad experience for everyone, but I believe that Spain did a constructive job there. And we also tried to take advantage of the occasion to improve the issue that most directly affected us, which was the situation of Gibraltar. You mentioned Gibraltar. There was a change in Spain's position after your arrival at the Ministry, perhaps as a result of indications from the Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, because your predecessor, José Manuel García Margallo, had been tougher in his approach to Gibraltar. You were committed to dialogue and there was criticism that there was a kind of renunciation of the sovereignty claim at that time. Was there a missed opportunity? No, no, at no time was there a renunciation of the sovereignty claim. The methods and procedures were simply adapted to the situation. And it was clear that it had to be part of the Brexit agreement and that it was better to have our partners in the European Union on our side than to engage in a battle that naturally takes time to bring forward. So at no point was there any compromise on the objective, which remains a long-term one, to achieve Spain's territorial integrity by including Gibraltar in Spain. But perhaps an opportunity was missed because, at the time, Gibraltar was in a weak position in needing and wanting to be in the European Union? Would it have been a moment to have insisted much more? Well, I believe that we insisted as much as we could and I am sure that Michel Barnier, if asked, will give an account of my insistence and my efforts. The thing is that this had to be, as I said, the result of a multilateral agreement and, quite simply, it is easy to think that Gibraltar is going to be subjugated. Is the fence going to be closed again? Is that going to be feasible? I, without upsetting the balance and making the outcome of the negotiations more difficult, I honestly believe that what was feasible to do was done and, well, we are still struggling today to achieve a tripartite agreement, between the United Kingdom and Spain, with the blessing of the European Union. It's all a matter of opinion, but I honestly don't think there was any special occasion to have recovered Gibraltar in a matter of hours. Another issue at the time was your trip to Iran in February 2018, somewhat with the idea of encouraging Spanish companies to invest there. So you thought Iran was getting back on the negotiating track? Naturally, I thought it was feasible to, let's say, develop our relations with Iran. At that time Iran was still involved in the negotiation process with the EU and the US on the nuclear plan, and we really made an effort to make it happen. Then, unfortunately, it did not crystallise. At that time I also had a certain relationship with the Iranian Foreign Minister at the time, Mohammad Javad Zarif, with whom I had met many years before at the United Nations in New York. In short, we really did think that there could be a rapprochement with Iran, as I thought there could be in the European Union. Subsequently it was not possible, partly because the US administration was not as involved as it should have been. And then there have been other subsequent developments that have made that increasingly difficult. When you were minister, there was already a parliamentary agreement signed by all the political groups in favour of recognising the Palestinian state when certain conditions were met. Did the Spanish government at that time think that the time had come to recognise Palestine? Yes, yes, we did. What happened is that we always gave priority to the need for joint recognition. The recognition of Palestine within the framework of a two-state solution has always been Spain's policy, and even in Brussels we were among those who pushed hardest for such recognition. I remember, as is also the case now, with Ireland and others. What happened is that we never felt it was appropriate to take the leap alone. In the relations with Morocco during your time at the Ministry, were there any moments of particular problems or difficulties? No. Spain has always considered Morocco a major partner. One of the Foreign Minister's first visits was to Morocco. We have always wanted to have a balance with Algeria and we have always wanted to try to promote and strengthen cooperation in the Maghreb. To this end, we have always considered it important to have a dialogue with both countries, as well as with Mauritania. My policy was to try to advance in that direction, and I always tried to have the best possible relationship with the two Moroccan colleagues I had. I continue to believe that it is a key partner for Spain. Was it ever considered at some point to take the turn that this government has taken in its Sahara policy? The government then always intended to follow Spain's traditional line, to try to defend a solution to the dispute within the framework of the United Nations plan and the United Nations resolutions. Another of the countries to which you travelled was Cuba. You made some rather controversial statements about a possible visit by the King and Queen of Spain. How did you experience that moment? Well, I made a visit to Cuba which I remember well and which I think went very well. Indeed, in my opinion it was a good thing for the King and Queen to travel to Cuba. Other heads of state from countries with which Cuba had a less close relationship had travelled. I will not hide the fact that I argued that the King and Queen should go to Cuba. That was met with some doubts and the trip was delayed, but it ended up taking place. I still think that the relationship between Cuba and Spain is important historically and socially, and that the Spanish heads of state had to travel to Cuba, as they did. Did you try to meet with dissident leaders in Cuba at that time? I don't think I had any specific meeting, but, in short, the position of that government, like that of the current government, is that Cuba must evolve towards democracy and that the opposition must have a role and a framework for action. I don't remember that we had to give up anything, but simply that the trip, which was a short one, had other objectives, but I always defended, and the Embassy also defended, that contacts with the opposition had to form part of our relationship. During your time at the Ministry. Venezuela expelled the Spanish ambassador. You said that Rajoy asked you to support Rodríguez Zapatero's dealings with the Maduro regime. In view of the situation we are in, do you think that was a good idea. Has any progress been made? I think many attempts were made in good faith to bring the Maduro regime and the opposition closer together. There were ups and downs and indeed, we had moments of tension between Spain and Venezuela. We withdrew the ambassadors, but then we got them back, without major problems. I believe that any attempt to prevent violence or democratic regression was and is positive. The truth is that things have not evolved as I would have hoped, but one does not lose hope. Another issue that caught you by surprise was that of the pro-independence tensions in Catalonia, which, although it was a national issue, also involved many Spanish diplomats who tried to explain the situation. Do you think that Spanish diplomacy or the Spanish government was sufficiently active at the international level at that time? I think so, frankly. I think that at government level the reactions and relations with other countries were always impeccable. I don't think there was any country, any relevant government that recognised the secessionist attempt. Another thing is in certain parliaments, but that is where freedom of speech and political freedom always work. What we strive to explain is that in Spain no one is persecuted for their political ideas, not even for defending the independence of a part of Spain, but that what they have to do is to do so while respecting the Constitution and the laws. And that, I believe, is still the current policy. And do you understand the frustration of many diplomats now that they have to justify an amnesty law when before, for some time, efforts were being made to get Puigdemont, for example, and other people who had fled to come to Spain? That is a subject on which, if I may, I prefer, as the Americans say, to keep my peace. What are you most proud of from your time as head of the Ministry? I am proud, first of all, to have led a ministry of competent people who are dedicated to the mission, which is to defend Spain's interests and also its values. I believe that the staff working in Spain's external action are very competent and dedicated. And I am also proud to have moved forward with State policies that have always been State policies. For example, on the issue of Brexit, not forgetting Spain's demands. We also launched an Africa plan that has subsequently been strengthened. We became directly involved in participating in the 2030 Agenda. We maintained friendly relations with our neighbours and with our traditional partners. We strived to pursue a state policy, which I believe is the most beneficial thing in the field of foreign policy for any government. And what is Spain's foreign policy lacking? For example, you were talking about the need for a state policy. Is there a lack of consensus among the major parties? I believe that current foreign policy continues along these lines. It is true that the domestic political situation does not help, but I believe that current foreign policy continues along the path of seeking consensus through a state policy. And beyond that, what should foreign policy be doing, and where should it be oriented? The truth is that this is a task that I leave to the current foreign minister and the government, who, at the end of the day, are the ones who have to devise, structure and promote foreign policy. I have already said that I believe that, in my opinion, it is a good thing for it to be a state policy and a consensual policy. Having been at the helm of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, what shortcomings do you see, not only in Spanish foreign policy, but in diplomacy in general? What things should be strengthened? In my opinion, and this is something that is unfortunately not in the hands of the Ministry, we should have more human and financial resources. I know that all the portfolio holders make efforts to improve in this area, but it is never enough, in one's opinion, especially when compared to other countries around us and at our level of development. Therefore, I believe that there is room for improvement. It is true that this government has made a special effort in the area of international cooperation and we should praise it, but there is always, always this kind of dissatisfaction that we would like more, we would always like it for the good of Spain. Was your time in the office of minister satisfactory? It was an experience that, as I said before, I didn't expect, but it was really fantastic and there is no way I would give it up. I am very happy to have been foreign minister and now I stick to what I am, an ambassador of Spain, who follows the instructions of his government, who is very happy to have gone through that time, but who at heart considers himself a professional diplomat.

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